[antir-heralds] CC: Vert,

[Leslie Schweitzer]

Unfortunately the blazon of the submission has been snipped. What was it again?

I seem to recall that the item under submission had its critter in chief whereas Rebekah's critter is in base. If so, then perhaps we are comparing the posture of the critter-in-chief with the posture of the cloud (none meaningful) and the posture of (something else in base) with the posture of the dog (not meaningful.)

Zenobia Naphtali

> Alicia then Owen:
> 
> > > HOWEVER, I'm more concerned about one that at first glance might not
> > > look like a problem:
> > > Rebekah Anna of Wynterbourne "Vert, a bend Or between a cloud and a dog
> > >  sejant erect contourny argent."
> > . . .
> > > Based on this, you may only have one CD for changing the type of the
> > > secondary charge group (RfS X.4.e), but not one for changing each of the
> > >  charges which you would get without the bend in the design (it would
> > > then fall under X.2)  *** Can someone verify this for me, please?
> >
> > One technical point: Even under X.2 you wouldn't get _separate_ differences
> > for the two charges.  X.2 doesn't count CDs.  Instead, X.2 says that in
> > appropriate circumstances a _single_ major difference (specifically, "the
> > type of every primary charge is substantially changed") can avoid conflict.
> >
> > Otherwise you're correct.  The charges around the bend are regarded as a
> > single group and difference is counted for collective changes to the group
> > as a whole, not separately for its individual elements.  When you apply one
> > rule to one charge group, the most you'll get is one CD.  The necessary
> > second CD must come either from a different rule or a different part of the
> > design.  The two items cited are in conflict.
> 
> Actually, I believe they are not.
> There is one CD by RfS X.4.e. for changing the type of charges in the
> secondary group.
> There is a second CD by X.4.h. for changing the posture of the
> quadruped from sejant contourny to passant to dexter.
> 
>      X.4.h. Posture Changes  - Significantly changing the posture or
> individual orientation of
>      charges in any group placed directly on the field, including
> strewn charges or charges overall,
>      is one clear difference.
> 
>      Changing the posture of at least half of the charges in a group
> is one clear difference.
> 
> The quadruped is half the charge group.  There is a meaningful posture
> comparison between sheep and dogs as they can both assume the same
> postures.  There is a CD for changing the posture/orientation of the
> critter.
> 
> I quote from the cover letter of 07/03 - From Wreath: Clarification
> and Explication of Some Rulings on Posture:
> 
>      Different types of quadrupeds (which may also be winged) are
> generally agreed to have
>      meaningful posture comparisons, even when there is substantial
> type difference between these
>      quadrupeds. Griffins and wolves are compared with the standard
> quadruped posture
>      comparisons. Therefore, a griffin passant has a CD for type and a
> CD for posture when
>      compared to a wolf rampant.
> 
> I highly recommend reading the entire article, as well, as it has much
> good information.  Find it at
> http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2003/07/03-07cl.html
> 
> - Teceangl
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