[antir-heralds] conflict check assistance please

[Britt]

I got into teaching mode, so the following is long.  Conflicts were
found for the first design, none for the second.  Now, keep reading
and learn stuff. :)


> Azure chaussé, a trident Or

Conflict with Eirikr inn kengr - March of 2000 (via An Tir):
(Fieldless) A trident Or.
One CD for the field.
He's in my shire, if you'd like to try for permission to conflict.
He's no herald so an emblazon would be very useful to let him see what
the finished design would be.

Clear of Gregory of Devon - January of 1973: Gules, a hayfork erect
within a bordure rayonny Or.
One CD for changing the field under X.4.a. and one CD for removing the
secondary charge group under X.4.b.

Clear of Francis Owen Roderick Keith - November of 1989 (via the
Outlands): (Fieldless) A table fork palewise argent.
One CD for fielded versus fieldless armory under X.4.a.iii. and one CD
for charge tincture change under X.4.d.

Clear of Tola Fredasdotter - September of 1984 (via Caid): Azure, a
fish fesswise impaled upon the tines of a trident, issuant from base,
all within a bordure rayonny Or.
There's one CD for changing the field under X.4.a. (from plain to
divided), and one CD for removing the bordure under X.4.b. So we don't
need to wonder if the fish is maintained or sustained, or if maybe the
trident's maintained or any of the other headache-producing agonies
inherent in interpreting early years SCA blazons. :)

Possible conflict with Bedivere de Byron - June of 1999 (via
Atlantia): Azure, a serpent entwined around a trident palewise Or.
There's a CD for changing the field. Now, as to that serpent...

Traditionally, entwined charges are treated like maintained charges
unless both charges have equal visual weight. Therefore there is not a
CD for the change to the flower. [Kisaiya Zingara, 12/00, R-Atlantial]

Clarion (now Batonvert - see below) noted that our current use of the
term entwined (or its equivalents) does not indicated whether the
surrounding charge is large enough to be considered co-primary or so
small it should be considered a maintained charge (or something in
between). I do not want to use the word sustained with entwined
charges, as neither is sustaining the other, but I am open to
suggestions on a way to make the distinction clear in blazon. Until
then, entwined charges are generally considered co-primary, but not
universally. [07/00, CL]

Elsbeth set both of those precedents.  Elsbeth also registered
Bedivere's armory. However, the precedents were set after the
registration and as the precedent of July 2000 says, 'generally',
which doesn't mean always.  This would require a Laurel pull-and-view
of Bedivere's armory for comparison and possible reblazon - we cannot
authoritatively call it clear or conflict without such a ruling.

Clear of Wilhelm von Wolfsburg - February of 2005 (via the Middle):
Sable, a trident Or between flaunches argent.
One CD for changing the field under X.4.a. and one CD for removing the
secondary charge group of flaunches under X.4.b.

Clear of Ian Mac Tavish - October of 1988 (via the West): Sable, a
trident bendwise Or.
One CD for changing the field under X.4.a. and one CD for changing the
orientation of the trident under X.4.h.


As Löwenmähne knows, this must be checked as both a field and as a
charge on a pile. Here are three relevant precedents:
================================
[Gules chaussé Or, a seahorse sejant counterchanged] Conflict with ...
Or, a pile gules. By long standing precedent, chaussé fields can
alternatively be blazoned as having a pile, and both forms must be
considered for conflict. Or, on a pile gules, a seahorse sejant
counterchanged conflicts with Or, a pile gules, with only one CD for
the addition of the tertiary charge. [Samhthann ni Giolla Mhuire,
10/99, R-Calontir]
---------------------------
[Argent, chausse, a yale rampant and in chief a laurel wreath vert]
Conflict with ... Vert, on a pile argent, a dragon rampant gules. As
we do not give difference between a pile and chausse, there is only
one CD for the changes to the tertiary charges. [Coldedernhale, Shire
of, 04/00, R-Middle]
----------------------------
[Barry vert and Or, on a pile sable a thunderbolt Or] This does not
conflict with Huldah von Jal, Per bend sinister sable and gules, a
thunderbolt Or. While we consider piles to conflict with chaussé
fields, a field with a pile is not reblazonable as having chaussé
field, as there is an artistic distinction that we enforce (namely
that the pile does not issue from the corners of the chief).
Therefore, the devices are clear by X.2.

Note that had Roiberd's device been Barry vert and Or, on a pile
inverted sable a thunderbolt Or it would have been in conflict with
Huldah because Roiberd's device would have had the equally valid
blazon Per chevron barry vert and Or and sable, a thunderbolt Or so
there would have been only a single CD for the change in the field.
[Roiberd Mor Barra, 11/00, A-Drachenwald]
================================

I included that third one for general information.  '<Tincture>
chaussé <tincture>' is conflict checked as though there were a pile,
but 'on a pile' does NOT need to be checked as though the tertiary lay
on the field.

So I also checked this as 'Or, on a pile azure a trident Or' as per
Laurel precedent.

Clear of Colin MacLear - July of 1991 (via the East): Argent, on a
pile ploye between two crescents azure, a trident argent.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a., and one CD for
removing secondary charges under X.4.b. Nothing for ployé versus
straight-sided:

[a pile vs. a pile ployé] There is … nothing between ployé and
straight edges. [Rickard of Gwyntarian, 10/01, R-Middle]

Clear of Deirdre ni Coinín - August of 1988 (via the Middle): Or, a
pile inverted azure, charged with a coney courant Or, between two
piles azure, each charged with an Irish harp Or.
The blazon is old, I'll bet we have three co-primary piles. Therefore
there is a CD for number of primaries by X.4.f. and a CD for
number+type of tertiaries by X.4.j.

Clear of Arnot-Delling of Hobbitwood - August of 1976: Argent, on a
pile bendwise sinister throughout azure an eagle's head erased Or,
orbed sable.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a., one CD for changing
the orientation of the pile under X.4.h. and one CD for changing type
only of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of Alaric Halden - September of 1991 (via Atlantia): Argent, on
a pile issuant from dexter chief azure a maltese cross palewise
argent.
Same count as above. One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a.,
one CD for changing the orientation of the pile under X.4.h. and one
CD for changing type only of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of Roane Fairegae of Lochlann - May of 1980 (via Ansteorra):
Argent, on a pile throughout azure a seal [Phoca vitulina] haurient
argent.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a. and one CD for
changing type+tincture of the tertiary under X.4.j.i.  Piles versus
piles throughout get no difference. This hasn't ever been explicitly
stated, however the proper form of a pile extending throughout or
nearly so if properly drawn dates back to Baldwin and is regularly
reiterated in precedent, as here:

[Azure, on a pile raguly Or a thistle proper, in base an estoile Or] A
pile should extend most if not all the way to the base; properly
drawn, there would not be enough room for a charge ... to fit between
the pile and the base. [Baldwin of Erebor, LoAR 6 December 1984, p.18]
The precedent has continued to hold ever since. [Sorcha ingen
Chonchobhair, 09/00, R-Meridies]

Clear of Richard FitzGilbert - August of 1981 (via Atlantia): Argent,
on a pile throughout azure a sun Or.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a. and one CD for
changing type+tincture of the tertiary under X.4.j.i.

Clear of Aubree Duquesne de Bellemare - May of 2007 (via Atenveldt):
Argent, on a pile throughout issuant from sinister azure a
fleur-de-lys Or.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a., one CD for changing
the orientation of the pile under X.4.h. and one CD for changing type
only of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of Dionisia de Boys - July of 2001 (via the West): Barry sable
and argent, on a pile azure a mullet argent.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a. and one CD for
changing type+tincture of the tertiary under X.4.j.i.

Lots of stuff with the X.4.a. + X.4.j. clearing CDs so I'll stop
citing them now.

Clear of Betha of Walnott tree Vale - July of 2004 (via Meridies): Or
semy-de-lys, on a pile throughout azure a tree eradicated Or.
One CD for removing the secondary charge group under X.4.b., and one
CD for changing type-only of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of both Evita Maria da Lombardia - May of 1994 (via Atlantia):
Or, on a pile azure between two rapiers inverted sable a bee Or. and
Atenveldt, Kingdom of - February of 2005 (via Atenveldt): Or, on a
pile between two compass stars azure a torch Or enflamed proper.
In each case there is a CD for removing the secondary charge group
under X.4.b. and that nice X.4.j.ii. CD.

Clear of Eoin of Fell Hold - August of 1983 (via the West): Or, on a
pile cotissed sable a caltrop Or.
One CD for changing the tincture of the primary under X.4.d., cotises
are secondaries so one CD for removing the secondary charge group
under X.4.b., and the X.4.j.ii. CD for changing the type of tertiary.

Clear of Hawk's Hollow, Canton of - November of 2006 (via the
Outlands): Or, on a pile issuant from dexter gules, a hawk stooping,
wings addorsed, Or.
One CD for changing tincture of the pile by X.4.d., one CD for
changing the orientation of the pile under X.4.h., and that CD for
changing type of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of Dorothea M'Queyn - June of 2004 (via Atenveldt): Or, on a
pile ployé between two roses gules slipped and leaved vert, a rose Or
slipped and leaved vert.
One CD for changing the tincture of the pile under X.4.d., one CD for
changing number of secondaries under X.4.f., and the X.4.j.ii. CD for
type change of the tertiary.

Clear of Damon Annaeus Licinius - July of 2000 (via Meridies): Or, on
a pile purpure a thunderbolt argent; clear of Artemisia, Kingdom of -
January of 2003 (via Artemisia): Or, on a pile sable a pheon inverted
Or; clear of Artemisia, Kingdom of - January of 2003 (via Artemisia):
Or, on a pile sable two arrows inverted in saltire Or; clear of
Vargskol Halfblood - October of 2004 (via Ansteorra): Or, on a pile
throughout gules a lizard's skull fesswise argent.
All of the above have one CD under X.4.d. for changing the tincture of
the pile and another CD under X.4.j.ii. for changing type of the
tertiary.  In the second Artemisian badge both sections of X.4.j. can
be applied, so you can get the tertiary CD for changing type+number or
simply for changing type.  Never more than one CD for changes to the
same group of tertiaries, though.


Conflict with Alexa of Krasnadar - August of 1979: Or, on a pile
throughout azure, involved about three stalks of wheat, a serpent Or,
orbed, armed, and langued gules.
Bah.  One CD under X.4.j.ii.  No, I don't know how to get ahold of
Alexa, but I wish I did.


> Or goutty de sang, on a pile throughout azure a trident Or

Clear of Colin MacLear - July of 1991 (via the East): Argent, on a
pile ploye between two crescents azure, a trident argent.
One CD for changing field tincture under X.4.a., one CD for changing
type of secondary charges under X.4.e. and one CD for changing number
of secondary charges under X.4.f.

Clear of Alianore de Harcourt -  March of 2002 (via Drachenwald): Or,
on a pile invected azure between eight gillyflowers gules seeded Or a
unicorn rampant argent.
There is one CD for changing the type of pile under X.4.e., a CD for
changing type of secondary charges under X.4.e., and a CD for changing
type+tincture of the tertiary under X.4.j.i.

Clear of Freydis Saemundardottir - May of 1988 (via the Middle): Or,
on a pile wavy azure, a mermaid maintaining a pearl argent.
One CD for changing type of the pile under X.4.e. and one CD for
changing type+tincture of the tertiary under X.4.j.i.

Clear of Heralds' Seals: Torch Herald - May of 1983 (via Meridies):
(Tinctureless) On a roundel a pile throughout charged with a torch.
It's tinctureless so let's count the roundel as the shape of display.
One CD for tinctureless versus tinctured via X.4.a.iii.  One CD for
adding a secondary charge group by X.4.b. One CD for type only change
of the tertiary under X.4.j.ii. since both armories qualify.

Clear of Betha of Walnott tree Vale - July of 2004 (via Meridies): Or
semy-de-lys, on a pile throughout azure a tree eradicated Or.
One CD for changing type of secondary under X.4.e., one CD for
changing tincture of secondaries under X.4.d., and one CD for changing
type only of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.

Clear of both Evita Maria da Lombardia - May of 1994 (via Atlantia):
Or, on a pile azure between two rapiers inverted sable a bee Or. and
Atenveldt, Kingdom of - February of 2005 (via Atenveldt): Or, on a
pile between two compass stars azure a torch Or enflamed proper.
In each case there is a CD for changing type of secondary under
X.4.e., for changing tincture of secondary charge group under X.4.d.,
for changing number of secondaries under X.4.f. and that nice
X.4.j.ii. CD.

Clear of Eoin of Fell Hold - August of 1983 (via the West): Or, on a
pile cotissed sable a caltrop Or.
Cotises are secondaries, so one CD for changing type of secondaries
under X.4.e., one for changing tincture of secondaries under X.4.d.,
one for changing tincture of primary under X.4.d., and the one for
changing type of tertiary by X.4.j.ii.

Clear of Alexa of Krasnadar - August of 1979: Or, on a pile throughout
azure, involved about three stalks of wheat, a serpent Or, orbed,
armed, and langued gules.
One CD for adding the secondaries under X.4.b. and one CD for changing
the type of tertiary under X.4.j.ii.


So two conflicts for the chaussé design - Eirikr inn kengr (solvable)
and Alexa of Krasnadar (?). And the Bedivere de Byron ambiguity.
No conflicts for the goutty design.


> And just for my style reference, a pile throughout has corners of the triangle part indented from the top corners but -can- touch the bottom of the device, correct? I am pretty certain that is what the precedent on triangle shapes (per chevron inverted, chaussé, pile) says.

Yes.  A charged pile in period armory was about two-thirds the width
of the top of the shield with a sixth of the width showing on either
side of the top of the pile. Uncharged piles were less than a third of
the shield width, but never less than a fourth.  (I've been crawling
around period armory lately - if anyone gets a return for a too-thin
pile and it meets period standards, come see me for appeal fodder.)

> I am going to tackle this conflict check myself as well, but the more eyes are on it now before I write this gentle back the better. This check is kinda complex, and I really want to see his device pass :)

Not complex so much as niggling.  I mean, you only have to check for
tridents and forks (eating and hay) on the field as primaries, and
then for piles.  There are just a LOT of piles.

- Teceangl